Yes, that would be nice. Charles Sharp is satisfied from this that in fact this is a good description of Soviet rifle division artillery usage - responsive, dedicated batteries supporting battalions, concentrated fire of the artillery regiment a rarity except in a prelim bombardment, indirect fire the overwhelming norm, guns usually 2 km behind the front, fire used in both offense and defense, battery commanders forward to direct the fire. This is VERY close to how the Germans did it as well.

Suggests to me a re-examination of the nation-specific artillery rules may need a revisit.

It also suggests that we in the west have been blinded by the Soviet usage of huge pre-programmed barrages at the start of offensives


Even so I'd like another data-point before ditching my pre-conceived ideas on Soviet artillery

Whats battery commander in Cyrillic? - hmm I'll ask Alan
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Best common practice

Well - it seems that this a fairly normal way to use artillery during WWII. One unit, one observer and a battery per battalion. Using field telephone it is fairly easy.

Given that the main threat to armoured vehicles were the few directly shooting guns and the receivers normal perception that enemy fire is more effective than the fire given out, most german stories of the war would be about those few guns. " Somehow we did not spot all the guns shooting at us - anyhow the soviets are masters of camouflage.... "
_________________
Best regards
Peter Kamp Nielsen

Chakoten
Danish Military Historical Society

I'm afraid it must also be said that the perception of the Soviet divisional artillery only being capable of direct fire in part stems from certain assumptions about "the Russians", to say nothing about the "Asiastic" people of the USSR. The notion that they are untermensch, cannot be trained in mathematics, ballistics, (triggernometry?), map reading, etc. As one Soviet officer has been quoted as saying, the reason the Germans lost was, "...we were not the people they thought we were..." I would hasten to add that most who drew the conclusion that the Red Army could not conduct indirect fire from its divisional artillery did not do so out of beliefs in racism, but just an underestimation of how many trained officers the Soviet education and training system produced. Steel production wasn't the only thing emphasized in the Soviet economy, education was too.

A little reflection would bring us to wonder how an army could fight whose artillery, its mainstay after most of the tank park evaporated in the summer of 1941, could only fight exposed to the German's excellent mortar capabilities. Direct fire guns in CD have a very short lifespan, for obvious reasons. Soviet gun production in 1941, and its available stocks, could not have kept its troops armed if they lost them as soon as they went into action.

The danish artillery officers who joined germany during WWII were somewhat dissapointed in german fire direction methods. They set up an integrated fire direction system including the battalion guns to enable fire from all observers and all guns.
_________________
Best regards
Peter Kamp Nielsen

Chakoten
Danish Military Historical Society

Hi Jack

Could you please change the title of the tread to something that mentions Soviet and Artillery?

Cheers

Bob
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

This doesn't help us with our basic quandary as its talking about pre-programmed fires but is interesting none the less

Cheers

Bob


http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%85_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2/04/05



Dicipline of artillery ensure breakthrough the fortified zone and support advancing infantry (February 1942)



Instructions Instructions
Commander of 16 Army Commander of the 16 th Army
by artillery ensure provision of artillery
breakthrough the fortified zone breakthrough the fortified zone
and maintenance and support
advancing infantry advancing infantry
(February 1942) (February 1942)
INSTRUCTIONS INSTRUCTIONS
TO ENSURE THE ARTILLERY TO ENSURE THE ARTILLERY
RUSH RUSH fortified zones fortified zones
ENEMY ENEMY
AND SUPPORT advancing infantry AND SUPPORT advancing infantry
I. I. General instructions General instructions

1. Duties of the Chief of Artillery Division (NAD). 1. Duties of the Chief of Artillery Division (NAD). Head

of Division Artillery cuts plots separate groups and divisions on the ground for highly visible local subjects

at the forefront of the enemy defensive zone at the rate of 300 m along the front at division (25 meters per

gun). Head of Division Artillery cuts plots separate groups and divisions on the ground for highly visible

local subjects at the forefront of the enemy defensive zone at the rate of 300 m along the front at division

(25 meters per gun).

The headquarters of the timely sending scheme artillery preparation and fire support and further checks on the

ground, properly understand the problem the battery commander, battery and firing platoons. The headquarters

of the timely sending scheme artillery preparation and fire support and further checks on the ground, properly

understand the problem the battery commander, battery and firing platoons.

Head of Division Artillery: Artillery Commander Division:

- Organize a fire, not allowing counter enemy's flanks; - organizes the fire, not allowing counterattacks on

the flanks;

- Raises the problem command reserve artillery against enemy artillery and bombardment of targets in the depth

of the enemy defensive zone during the artillery preparation and under accompanied by an attack; - raises the

problem command reserve artillery against enemy artillery and bombardment of targets deep in the enemy's

defensive zone during the artillery preparation and under accompanied by an attack;

- Provides the fire control group reliable communication; - provides the fire control group reliable

communication;

- Attracts mortar to create a fire wall. - Attracts mortar to create a fire wall.

If an insufficient number of artillery brought the regimental mortar batteries. If an insufficient number of

artillery brought the regimental mortar batteries. For the mortar battery four-mortar composition is given in

section 150-200 m on the front. For the mortar battery 4-mortar structure given area of 150-200 m on the

front. 76-mm battery-PA given plots at 100 m. 76-mm battery-PA are given plots of 100 m

The fire mortars with sugar is in the areas of artillery fire. The fire mortars with sugar is in the areas of

artillery fire.

2. Duties of commanders of groups. 2. Responsibilities of commanders of groups. The commander of the group:

The commander of the group:

- Is responsible for the proper organization and the timeliness of fire; - is responsible for the proper

organization and the timeliness of fire;

- After consultation with the commanders of the infantry on the ground indicates the battery commander to fire

stations along the front and on the flanks, on the basis of calculation of 25 m at the gun on the front, and

the subsequent transfer of fire lines, explaining all the issues on the ground and on the map; - after

consultation with the commanders of the infantry on the ground indicates the battery commander of their fire

stations along the front and on the flanks, on the basis of calculating the 25 meters at the gun on the front,

and the subsequent transfer of fire lines, explaining all issues on the ground and on the map;

- Indicates place of advanced observation posts (TNG), battalion commander; - indicates the location of

advanced observation posts (TNG), battalion commander;

- At the end of the preliminary work examines single control shot battery life, is correctly understood the

flotilla commander objectives. - At the end of the preliminary work examines single control shot battery life,

is correctly understood the flotilla commander objectives.

3. Duties of commanders of divisions. 3. Duties of commanders of divisions. Divisional Commander: The

commander of the division:

- Obtained by linking the problem with the commander of small units, indicates the battery commander with the

vantage point of their tasks on the terrain, identifying the subjects at local middle section of each; -

obtained by linking the problem with the command of small units, said battery commander from the observation

post their challenges on the ground, identifying subjects at local middle section of each;

- Indicates benchmarks from which the fire moved in depth and along the front of enemy defenses; - indicates

benchmarks from which light is transferred to depth and along the front of the enemy's defenses;

- Check the individual shots, properly understand the problem commanders Battery (platoon commander checked

the control data issued on the boards of guns); - check the individual shots, properly understand the

challenges commanders Battery (platoon commander checked the control data issued on the boards of guns) ;

- Ensure the correct location of advanced observers and providing reliable communications with commanders

infantry units. - Ensure the correct location of advanced observers and providing reliable communications with

commanders infantry units.

4. Duties of the battery commander. 4. Duties of the battery commander. The battery commander is responsible

for the artillery preparation and the establishment of fire wall. The battery commander is responsible for the

artillery preparation and the establishment of fire wall.

The work was a battery commander: The work was a battery commander:

a) in carrying zeroing frame and check the fan battery; a) in carrying zeroing frame and check the fan

battery;

b) In preparing the data for transfer of fire and data on foreign countries (data is transmitted to the firing

position and write on the boards of guns). b) In preparing the data for transfer of data on fire and abroad

(data are transmitted to the firing position and write on the boards of guns).

The battery commander is on the TM, together with the commander backed companies, in the event that the

conditions of observation do not allow to be together, commander of the battery is separate, but necessarily

establish a company commander with reliable and uninterrupted communication. The battery commander is on the

TM, together with the commander backed companies, in the event that the conditions of observation do not allow

to be together, the commander of the battery is separate, but necessarily establish a company commander with

reliable and uninterrupted communication.

5. Forward Observer (platoon commander) is set on the line of the second tier of advanced infantry units (with

the company commander). 5. Forward Observer (platoon commander) is set on the line of the second tier of

advanced infantry units (with the company commander).

6. Duties fire platoon commander. 6. Responsibilities of the platoon commander of the fire. The commander of

the firing squad: The commander of the firing squad:

- Is responsible for the correctness of action gunner, precise adherence to fire and the timeliness of the

opening and cease-fire; - is responsible for the accuracy of Action gunner, precise adherence to fire and the

timeliness of discovery and the cease-fire;

- Given the task of the battery commander and data installations for firing at the site and borders, ensure

the correctness of records of all installations on the boards of guns; - was given the task of the battery

commander and the data settings for firing at the site and borders, monitors the accuracy of records of all

installations on the boards of guns;

- Introduces the commanders of guns and gun crews with the schedule of fire during the artillery barrage and

fire support; - introduces the commanders of guns and gun crews with the schedule of fire during the artillery

barrage and fire support;

- Makes training personnel firing squad. - Makes training personnel firing squad.
II. II. Artillery support attack Artillery support attack

1. Artillery security attack begins precisely at the times set by the order (watch all commanders must be

pre-checked), and on schedule. 1. Artillery support the attack begins precisely at the times set by the order

(watch all commanders must be pre-checked), and on schedule.

Shooting is conducted in the same plant fan of the actual incidence. Shooting is conducted in the same plant

fan of the actual incidence.

2. Fire support. 2. Fire support. Light from the front lines moved at a depth determined by GHQ light signals

on the radio or just to watch. The fire from the front lines moved at a depth determined by G.H.Q. light

signals on the radio or just to watch.

Transferring the fire produced by boundaries each time for about 100 meters in depth, depending on the

conditions of observation and the presence of visible goals. Transferring the fire produced by boundaries each

time for about 100 m deep, depending on observing conditions and the presence of visible goals. These lines

are called the borders of sweeps, in contrast to the main lines, denoted by the names of animals ("Tiger",

"lion"). These lines are called the borders of sweeps, in contrast to the main lines, denoted by the names of

animals ("Tiger", "lion").

For each turn of combing the fire is within 3 minutes and transferred on the orders of the commanders of

batteries on the next frontier, and the last milestones, after three minutes - on the main line. For each turn

of combing the fire is within 3 minutes and transferred on the orders of the commanders of batteries on the

next frontier, and the last milestones, after 3 minutes - on the main line.

On the main juncture is to fire the signal to be installed before the commander of the infantry regiment

(rockets), and then - on the borders of the sweep until the next major milestone, etc. On the main turn of

fire before the signal is being installed by pre-commander of the infantry regiment (rockets), and later - on

the borders of mopping up the next major milestone, etc.

Consumption of shells on the lines sweep: in one minute, two rounds of cannon or one for each howitzer gun.

Consumption of shells on the borders of sweep: in one minute, two rounds of cannon or howitzer one for each

gun.

Consumption of shells on the main lines: one minute on a four-gun battery of cannon shells in 1910, six

howitzer shells. Consumption of shells on the main lines: one minute on a 4-gun battery of cannon shells in

1910, six howitzer shells. This rate of fire continued during the first 10 minutes in the next 10 minutes the

rate of fire are the same as that on the borders of combing. This rate of fire continued during the first 10

minutes in the next 10 minutes the rate of fire are the same as that on the borders of combing.

After 20 minutes, fire support is terminated, and the fire is on individual goals, hindering the advance of

infantry. After 20 minutes, fire support is terminated, and the fire is on individual goals, hindering the

advance of infantry.

If successful, advancing infantry should accompany the barrage at a depth of 1.5-2 km. If successful,

advancing infantry should accompany the barrage at a depth of 1.5-2 km.

The elimination of separate pockets of the enemy, left after artillery fire, mortar fire should be made. The

elimination of separate pockets of the enemy, remaining after the artillery fire, mortar fire should be made.

The guns of 152-mm caliber firing on the main boundaries of the fire regime established for the howitzer

battery on the borders of combing. The guns of 152-mm caliber firing on the main frontiers of the fire regime

established for the howitzer battery on the borders of combing.
Zam. Zam. Commander of 16 Army Commander of the 16 th Army
Maj. Artillery Major General Artillery
Kazakov Kazakov

Military Commissar of Artillery Military Commissar of Artillery
16 Control-Army control of 16 Army
Senior Battalion Commissar Senior Battalion Commissar
DMITRIEV DMITRIEV
Chief of Staff of Artillery Chief of Staff of Artillery
16-Army Lt. Col. GLUSHKOV 16, Army Lt. Col. GLUSHKOV
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob_Mackenzie:
Could you please change the title of the tread to something that mentions Soviet and Artillery?

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Thanks
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

This may be useful - Soviet artillery manual. It says the basic unit of fire is the battery

http://www.fortification.ru/library/artilleriya/glava11.html
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Google is quite good

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob_Mackenzie:
This may be useful - Soviet artillery manual. It says the basic unit of fire is the battery

http://www.fortification.ru/library/artilleriya/glava11.html

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Here are some more translated links on Sov artillery tactics. Concerning the "direct support" of infantry battalions, that seems to be taking place when the Soviets artillery planning identifies 'infantry support artillery groups' or divisions of the 'regimental artillery groups.' In effect it seems to be mostly mortar battalions and maybe some light artillery battalions/batteries working for the infantry battalions. Makes for some good reading. The planned, massive and as the war goes on, ever deepening artillery barrage is still predominant.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.rkka.ru/analys/art/title.htm&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhFKApVLNf_q9LRrNARQa8XOXFTDw

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://militera.lib.ru/science/peredelsky_ge/index.html&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhieF6l6pP19qQwr1jKbkyMuHiOCwQ
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Kelly Armstrong

The rule on self-observed fire has always seemed to be a good way to represent Soviet artillery utilization. It does not seem too far removed for the tactics discussed in the memoirs.


Self-Observed Fire
Any indirect fire stand may self observe for its own fire. An indirect fire stand may self-observe its fire against any stand to which there is an LOS from the indirect fire stand itself or any point within one inch of the indirect fire stand.

Design Note:
Many indirect fire units self-observed their own fire from “close defilade.” This involved placing the firing weapons in cover–usually behind a rise–and sending an observer a few yards forward to direct the fire and shout back corrections.

John Drye

quote:

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The fire mortars with sugar is in the areas of artillery fire.

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