I know this isn't exactly the right place for this, but when I was sent Red Steel, it was already too late for corrections. I have done a fair amount of research that involved 1941 Red Army tank brigades, and
"2 Tank Battalions, each with

Composite Company 1 command T-34/41 tank
1 T-34/41 tank
1 KV-1 tank
2 T-60 tanks"

is not in keeping with any of the ones I've looked at closely. Each brigade consisted of a headquarters, a motorized rifle battalion, and a tank regiment. The tank regiment was almost always two battalions. But they looked like this:

Tank Regiment command:
1 command stand, 1 car

1st Battalion:
1 command T-34/41 tank (joint)
3 T-34/41 tanks

2nd Battalion:
1 command light tank (joint)
3-5 light tanks

Heavy Tank Company:
1 command KV-1 tank
1 KV-1 tank

The light tanks could be T-40, T-60, T-26, BT-5, BT-7, or some combination thereof, mixed ones were not uncommon.

The reason the KV has a "pure" command tank is that all KV tanks had two-way radios in 1941.

Instead of mixing the light, medium and heavy tanks into battalions, they were kept in seperate formations, and the KVs were assigned to brigades as seperate companies of 7 tanks, which I think translates better into game significance as 2 tanks than 1. Of course once into action, every tank brigade would be reduced in size by combat and the usual maintenance problems that beset all tanks in action.

Jake's point would still apply, the tank brigade would consist of the following commands -
HQ
HQ company (including a small recon element, commissar, etc)
Tank regiment HQ (though you could abstract this into the brigade HQ)
2 tank battalions, one medium, one light
1 heavy tank company
1 motorized rifle battalion HQ (this could consist of anything from just a command/infantry - politruk to include an 82 mortar, AT rifle platoon, 45mm AT battery, AAHMG platoon, and in a few cases, a selfpropelled 57mm AT battery - or these could be brigade assets part of the brigade HQ company)
3 motorized rifle companies

Jack,

I wasn't in fact listing all the items in the tank brigade, just the tank battalion. But this is rather off-topic, so I'll put it in the TO&E section.

Jake,
Yeah, I understood that, just the tank regiment. I just wanted to make the point that the two battalions were not mixed, but one was medium, one light, and the KVs were in a seperate company.

Jack, your TOE doubles the number of T-34 and multiply the number of light tanks by 1 to 1.5.

Would you consider your TOE is full paper strenght and most units were under, or is it an average strenght?

And, yes, I know your short answer is "it all depends, nothing is carved in stone in 41".
_________________
Francis Garnier

Francis, the short answer is right, there were a few with up to 20 KVs! I suspect the one in Red Steel is a brigade that has had a few dents in it. The 21-tank T-34-equipped 1st Battalion is fairly standard, two 10-tank tank companies and a command tank. The light, 2nd battalion could have from 20 to 30 light tanks attached to it. I have run across one with BT-2s, BT-5s, BT-7s AND T-60s, plus an OT-133 (flamethrowing T-26) thrown in for good measure. The 20 or so tank brigades that Lelyushenko formed in September 1941 were equipped with what was available. If the brigade happened to be formed near a factory making light tanks, that kind is what they got. Otherwise they got whatever was available; left overs from the disbanded tank division they were formed from, stuff just in from Central Asia or the Far East, local training vehicles, stuff that was being repaired in a local factory, etc. The 7-tank KV company was pretty standard, but of course there were exceptions, brigades that got no KVs at all, brigades that got more than the standard allotment (several of these in the Leningrad area). Some attempt SEEMS to have been made to give a brigade EITHER T-26s OR BTs if there were both available, but the exceptions seem about as common as this "standard." In 1941, what you saw was what you got. Yes, my TO&E is a full strength one, ie a brigade that has not gone into combat yet.

Just for interest sake here are the strengths of all the early forming tank bdes I could find.

Sorry about the crappy formatting but the board mangles it


Cheers

Bob

code:

---

                        Other
Brigade   Date   KV   T-34   BT   T-26   T-60   T-40   Type   Number
1st Guards   14th Nov   1†   1   1***   0   0   0   -   -
2nd   15th Nov   0   5   1   0   0   0   -   -
4th   Oct   1   1   5***   0   0   0   -   -
4th   Nov   1   4   2   0   0   0   -   -
6th   Sept   0   0   0   19   0   0   -   -
6th   15th Nov   1   2   0   18   0   0   -   -
7th ‡   19th Sept   1   4   0   0   0   6   BA-20   3
8th   Aug   1   4   0   0   0   6   -   -
8th   16th Oct   0   6   0   0   0   6   -   -
8th   20th Nov   0   1   0   0   0   2   -   -
9th   Oct   0   4   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   7
9th   Nov   1   4   0   0   0   6   -   -
10th   Aug   1   9   0   7 (combined)   0   -   -
11th   Oct   1   2   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   2
17th   10th Oct   0   4   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   3
17th   Nov   0   0   0   0   0   1   -   -
18th   9th Oct##   1   6   6*   0   0   0   BA-27M†††
ZiS-30   1
2
18th   9th Oct##   0   6   7****   0   0   0   BA   1
18th   12th Oct   0   1   0   0   0   0   ZiS-30
BA-10   1
1?
18th   28th Oct   0   1   1   0   0   0   ZiS-30   ?
19th   Oct   0   2   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   2
19th   Nov   0   0   0   0   0   1   BA-10   1
20th   16th Oct   0   6   0   4   0   2   ZiS-30
BA-10   2
1
20th   28th Oct   0   4   0   4   0   2   ZiS-30
BA-10   ?
?
21st   Nov   0   4   1/3**   0   2   0   T-34/57
ZiS-30   2
1
22nd   Oct   0   6   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks‡‡
T-50
BA-10   4
2
1?
22nd   Nov   0   3   2   0   0   3   -   -
23rd   28th Oct   1   2   0   0   0   4   -   -
23rd   16th Nov   0   2   0   0   0   4   -   -
23rd   20th Dec   0   0   0   0   0   0   Valentine   4
23rd   1st Jan 42   0   0   0   0   0   0   Valentine   1
24th   Nov   1   4   0   2   0   4   -   -
25th   Nov   1   2   0   0   3   0   -   -
26th   Nov/Dec   0   3   0   0   3   0   -   -
27th   16th Dec   0   1   ?   ?   ?   ?   Light tanks   2
28th   Nov   1   2   0   0   0   3   -   -
32nd   Oct   1   1   0   0   4   0   -   -
42nd   Sept   1   4   0   0   0   6   -   -
46th   Sept   2   4   0   0   0   0   OT-133   2
108th   Oct   1   1   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   5
119th   10th Oct   0   1   0   1   0   0   -   -
121st   27th Sept   1   4††   0   9   0   0   -   -
121st   9th Nov   0   1   0   1   0   0   -   -
122nd   Sept   1   4††   0   0   0   13‡‡‡   -   -
122nd   1st Oct   1   2   0   0   0   4‡‡‡   -   -
124th   Sept   9#   0   0   0   0   0   BA-10   5
126th   Oct   0   0   4   8   0   0   -   -
127th   Oct   1   0   3   7   0   0   -   -
128th   Oct   1   0   8   3   0   0   -   -
130th   Sept   1   1   ?   ?   0   ?   Light tanks   10
132nd   15th Nov   9   3   3   0   0   0   -   -
141st   Sept   1   2   4   0   0   0   -   -
142nd   Nov   0   5   1   0   0   0   -   -
143rd   Oct   0   2   0   9   0   0   -   -
147th   Oct   0   2   4   4   0   0   -   -
150th   Sept   0   2   0   0   0   0   T-50   2

* 5 BT-5 & 1 BT-2, ** 1 BT-2 & 3 BT-5/7, *** BT-7 & 7M, ****1 BT-7, 5 BT-5 & 1 BT-2
‡ Also had: 2 STZ-5, 20 ZiS-5, 14 Gaz-AA, 12 Cars, 1 M/C Stand and 2 37mm AA
‡‡ Including a single (real world) T-29-4 prototype
‡‡‡ Mix of T-30, T-40 and T-40S
† Actually 2 real world KV’s and 2 T-34’s so could use another T-34 instead.
†† the 121st and 122nd Tank Brigades were built from the 63rd tank brigade (which never saw combat) the 63rd was ordered to receive 2 T-34/57 tanks. Unfortunately its unclear if those tanks made it to either the 121st or 122nd
††† Actually only 2 BA-27M mixed with some other unknown types
# The 124th Tank Brigade had 1 (real world) experimental KV-220 with a KV-1 turret
## Sources differ on the composition

The 8th Brigade had a curious organisation. Each of it’s regiment’s three battalions had only one type of tank: 1st KV, 2nd T-34 and 3rd T-40. On October 19th 1941 the 8th received 2 T-34/57 tank destroyers as reinforcements. The 10th brigade had 1 KV and 2 T-34 in the 1st battalion, 7 T-34 in the 2nd and 7 T-26 or T-60 in the third battalion.

The 15th when committed to combat had no trucks, cars or armoured cars.

The 21st when formed in October 1941 had 2 rare T-34/57 tank destroyers

---

And just for interest my take on the the 41 TB org

code:

---

Brigade HQ
--1 Command Stand
--1 Car
HQ Company
--1 Staff Radio Truck
--1 Recce BA-6 or BA-10
--1 Engineer Stand
--1 Light Truck
1 Brigade Recce Company
--1 BA-20 Command
--1 BA-6 or 10
--1 M/C Infantry Stand
1 Tank Regiment
--RHQ
----1 M/C Command Stand
--1 Medium/Heavy Tank Battalion
----BHQ
------1 T-34 M1941 Command
----1 Heavy Tank Company
------1 KV-1 M1941
----2 Medium Tank Companies
------2 T-34 M1941
--2 Light Tank Battalions
----BHQ
------1 Light Tank
----3 Companies
------2 Light Tanks
1 Infantry Battalion
--BHQ
----1 Command Stand
----1 Car
--3 Companies
----1 Infantry Stand (+)
----2 Infantry Stands
----3 Light Trucks
--1 Tank Destroyer Company
----3 AT Assault Stands
----1 Light Truck
--1 AT Company
----2 Truck towed M1938 45mm
--1 Mortar Company
----1 50mm Mortar Stand (6)
----1 Light Truck
----1 82mm Mortar Stand (6)
----1 Medium Truck
1 AA Battalion
--1 Command Stand
--1 Car
--1 AAHMG Stand
--1 Light Truck
--2 Truck Towed M1939 37mm
--1 Light Ammo Truck

---

There has to be a solution for this chart problem. Barry? Some way we can import Excel files into the forum? Surely if you can program telephones to play sea battles...

The chart is of course expressed in CD terms. There are a few problems with it (I have different data for a few of these), in that the following are missing:
1) sources? I assume the Russian Battlefield or the RKKA site for most?

2) the basis for coversion of real world numbers into CD numbers. For example, I assume that in general you interpreted 7 real KV-1s as 1 CD KV-1. Since the official exchange rate is 4-6=1, you could legitimately interpret 7= a healthy 1, rounded down. At the same time you could call it a slender 8, making two KVs out of it. In terms of their impact on the 1941 battlefield, I would go for 2, but perhaps that's just from my seeing the world through such rosie lenses?

3) Then there is the question we are addressing, how were these brigades FORMED? What we have in the chart is their state at various times. Since we know once in contact with the enemy, numbers will fluctuate considerably, taking into acount losses, damage from combat and breakdown, repairs, replacements, scrounging, capture, transfer, etc, the numbers displayed represent reports on the brigades at various times, and there is no indication as to when the data describes their initial issue of tanks or their subsequent condition.

Bitching aside (its my JOB damnit!) Nice putting it all in one chart, Bob, thanks. Better still would be real world numbers, and sources. Thanks

The notes were for my own benefit. I could probably back track the sources but it would be a very big job.

I'll link the main site(s) when I get back in the UK.

AMVAS is one
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

OK, so I was almost right, and Red Steel is too. There were actually three shtati or Tables of Organization and Equipment for Soviet tank brigades, as follows (real numbers, not CD numbers here):
All had the same brigade staff, with a signal company, maintenance company, medical detachment, reconnaissance company (3 armored cars, motorcycle platoon)

23 August
Tank Regiment
**Regiment HQ - 1 T-34
**1st Battalion
***HQ - 1 T-34
***1 Company - 7 KV-1
***2 and 3 Companies - 10 T-34s each
**2nd and 3rd Battalions - each:
***HQ - 1 light tank
***1,2,3 Companies - 10 light tanks each

Motorized Rifle Battalion
**HQ
*** AAMG platoon - 3 Quad AAMG trucks
**1,2,3 Rifle companies, each - 9 LMG, 3 50mm mortars
**Machinegun company - 6 to 12 MMGs
**Mortar company - 6 82mm mortars

Light AA Battalion
**HQ
**1,2,3 batteries, each - 4 37mm or 25mm AA
OR
**1 battery - 4 76mm AA
**2, 3 batteries - 4 37mm AA

13 September
(the recon company now has either the motorcycle platoon or a rifle platoon in trucks)
There is no tank regiment, instead
*1st Tank Battalion
**HQ
**1st Company - 7 KV-1s
**2, 3, 4 companies - 10 T-34s each
*2nd Tank Battalion
**HQ
**1,2,3 companies - 10 light tanks each
motorized rifle company now has 12 MMGs in the MG company, and the AA battalion is gone

9 December (this is the one in Red Steel)
(the recon battalion again has one motorcycle platoon and the armored car platoon)

In fact, often the August and September brigades fought their KV company as a seperate unit, since maneuvering KVs and T-34s together was a disadvantage to the T-34s since the KV was substantially slower.
*1, 2 Tank Battalions - each
**HQ - 1 T-34
**1 company - 5 KV-1s
**2 company - 7 T-34s
**3 company - 10 T-60s
the motorized rifle battalion is the same (719 men) except that there is no AAMG platoon attached to its HQ, there are 12 MMGs in the MG company, and it has gained an AT section with 2 45mm AT guns

Clarifcation of the Recon Company?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Radey:
OK, so I was almost right, and Red Steel is too. There were actually three shtati or Tables of Organization and Equipment for Soviet tank brigades,
==SNIPPED===
reconnaissance company (3 armored cars, motorcycle platoon)


==SNIPPED===

13 September
(the recon company now has either the motorcycle platoon or a rifle platoon in trucks)

===SNIPPED===

9 December (this is the one in Red Steel)
(the recon battalion again has one motorcycle platoon and the armored car platoon)
===SNIPPED===

---