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Italian truck gun - question on 100/17 howitzer
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grumble 87106
Major General


Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2313
Location: Lancaster PA - USA
Italian truck gun - question on 100/17 howitzer  Reply with quote  

While putting together the troops necessary to portray the Ragruppamento Esplorante del Corpo d'Armata di Manovra (RECAM) in 1941, I came across familiar and unfamiliar autocannoni.

No problem with the Breda 20/65. I mounted those on captured 30 cwt CMP trucks. Likewise I am building Morris 15 cwt trucks to transport the 65/17 guns. Then I ran into trouble.

Does anyone know what truck was used to transport the 100/17 obice as an autocarro mount? Was it a captured 3-tonner, or an Italian chassis such as the Lancia 10-tonner? Benghazi Handicap says all these were mounted on captured trucks. Anyone have a picture of what that looked like?

An encounter between RECAM and a couple of Jock columns during a hypothetical part of Crusader sounds like am intriguing scenario. Stan, who gave me the plans for the AC 65/17, has been waiting patiently for this. I could throw him a sop and run something like Tummar West with the AC 75CK, but he yearns for the 65/17 autocannone. Smile

Forming the RECAM will give me the chance to use the Giovanni Fascisti that I painted up about 15 years ago and have never used. Also put to use will be the L6/40 tank I bought at Historicon this year. Luckily the TO&E only calls for one of them - in the Test Armor Company - and that's exactly how many I bought. Wink
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Daniel

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:01 am   View user's profile Send private message
Alanmccoubrey
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK
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I'm sure that the answer will be in this link.

http://afrikakorps.org/italiangunportees.htm
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Alan

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:47 am   View user's profile Send private message
Peter Kamp/Denmark
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Not as far I can see...  Reply with quote  

I did not find any 100/17 on that page. That may make it a field modification for transportation only .....
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Peter Kamp Nielsen

Chakoten
Danish Military Historical Society

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:45 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Alanmccoubrey
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 Reply with quote  

Given the gun's weight I expect that they used a 3 tonner. However Commando Supremo has the 100/17 on Lancias later in the war.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Giovanifascisti.html

As does the Afrikakorps site.

http://www.afrikakorps.org/batterievolanti.htm
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Alan

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:58 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Peter Kamp/Denmark
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Location: Denmark
Ups....  Reply with quote  

According to the Batterie Volante page the Lancia versions seems to be for mounted firing. It seems to be the front part of the mountain howitzer only.

Typo's may be caused by kitten Embarassed
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Peter Kamp Nielsen

Chakoten
Danish Military Historical Society

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:46 pm   View user's profile Send private message
David Reasoner
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Joined: 03 May 2006
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Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
RECAM Autocannoni  Reply with quote  

Daniel, I have quite a bit on Italian Autocannoni, including those used by the RECAM. The 100/17 was indeed mounted on the Lancia 3RO heavy truck. I'll try to dig up a few photos for you. Other RECAM Autocannoni were the Morris Autocannone da 65 you mentioned and the 20mm Breda mounted on captured CMP Ford F15 15cwt truck chassis.

As a side note, the master I delivered back in April for the Morris Autocannone da 65 is now with SHQ for mold-making, along with that for the French 65mm Mle.1906 mountain gun. Hopefully they will both enter production soon.

I posted a few WIP photos some months ago of my version of the 20mm Breda on CMP 15cwt:





David

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:03 pm   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
David Reasoner
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Joined: 03 May 2006
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Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky, USA
 Reply with quote  

Daniel, here are a few photos to get you started:





And a bit from a thread on Commando Supremo:

"The Italians also made good use of the support vehicles captured, by employing them again in their configuration of origin or by transforming them into battery volanti. The production of these autoportées pieces of artillery started in the summer 1941 in the workshops of the 12° Autoraggrupamento, in the village of Giovanni Berta not far from El Gubba.

In addition to its achievements on the Lancia 3Ro, this unit transformed captured vehicles of Canadian origin, the Ford F15A with all-wheel traction, by equipping them with Breda 20/65 machine guns on mod.39 mountings. They also converted Morris CS6 trucks, on which guns of 65/17 were installed. The workshops of Giovanni Berta produced two batteries of Ford F15A (8 guns each) and 7 batteries of autocannoni da 65/17 (28 specimens). These batteries all were assigned with the RECAM (Raggruppamento Esplorante del Corpo d' Armata di Manovra) from August 1941. Half of the autocannoni da 65/17 were destroyed in error by German Stuka when they attacked the British depot of Bir Birraneb on December 1, 1941.

In spite of this loss, the results obtained in particular at Sidi Rezegh and Bir El Gobi were considered to be satisfactory, and the production continued until the dissolution of the 12° Autoraggruppamento in June 1942. Meanwhile, two more groups of autocannoni da 65/17 were created (XIV° and XV° gruppi), as well as the 13a batteria of 20mm guns. These units were attached to the artillery regiment of division Giovani Fascisti in May 1942."

And a couple of WIP photos of my scratchbuilt Morris Autocannone da 65:





David

Edit: as a model maker, you may also find these pictures of the Mars Models Lancia Autocannone very helpful:

http://henk.fox3000.com/Mars/7272.jpg

I do eventually plan on making a resin conversion kit for the Skytrex Lancia, but that is still a ways in the future.

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:16 pm   View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Bob_Mackenzie
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:23 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Bob_Mackenzie
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Hmm I could have sworn tht page had the 100/17 on Embarassed
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Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:28 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Alanmccoubrey
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 Reply with quote  

David/Bob, I knew we had seen pics of the thing somewhere, it must hav ebeen a SOGGs thread !

Isn't it fun that the only left hand drive vehicles in the pics/plans were captured from the British ?
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Alan

Post Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:35 pm   View user's profile Send private message
grumble 87106
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 Reply with quote  

Great stuff! After posting the original query, I did find the Comando Supremo site and read about the 100/17 on the Lancia 3RO but had not seen a photo until these were posted on this thread.


i have downloaded the photos and drawings for future reference.


Grazie! Smile
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Daniel

Post Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:27 am   View user's profile Send private message
Rick Nance
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Joined: 08 Sep 2007
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 Reply with quote  

Gentlemen
The easy way to think of truck transport.
It is usually a Ford or a GMC made in a foreign factory.

Great pics on the thread!

Post Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:31 am   View user's profile Send private message
grumble 87106
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Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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Location: Lancaster PA - USA
 Reply with quote  


quote:
Stan, who gave me the plans for the AC 65/17, has been waiting patiently for this. I could throw him a sop and run something like Tummar West with the AC 75CK, but he yearns for the 65/17 autocannone.

Official retraction follows Embarassed

Stan informs me: "Gerard is part Italian, not me. HE would probably like to play Italian historical forces. I only gave you the truck plan because I found it in an old MilitaryModeler looking for something else. To please me, you would have to find a scenario where Polish Cavalry mounts cannons on their horses to shoot panzers!"

I informed Stan that I will try to get a unit of Carpathian Lancers together for him ASAP - but no horses. Sad

Meanwhile, this afternoon Gerard or somebody will get to use truck-mounted 20mm and 75mm Italian guns in a pick-up scenario. Hope to post pictures of the action soon.
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Daniel

Post Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:44 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Dave
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Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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Location: UK/France - St Omer
 Reply with quote  

There is a scale drawing of the 100 on the 3Ro on page 685 of "GLI AUTOVEICOLI DA COMBATTIMENTO DELL'ESERCITO ITALIANO" Volume 2, along with several other photos.

Both volumes of this are well worth having if you like modelling some of the more obscure vehicles the Italian's used.

Each has about 900 pages, and relatively cheap. I think I paid about £50 for the pair, but it was about 5 years ago.


Dave

Post Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:46 pm   View user's profile Send private message
Rick Nance
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Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 22
trucks for Italy  Reply with quote  

Italian Order of Battle
by Victor Madeja
Light:
Infantry trk 10-12 men 1000kg 40kph to 25
OM4 OMF 12-15 men 1200kg 60 kph to 30
Fiat 618 CM 12-15 men 1250kg 65kph to30
Spa 25 C10 16-20 men 1800 kg 50 kph to 25
Fiat 612p 20-25 men 2500 kg 43kph to 25
Spa 38r 20 -25 men 2500 kg 52kph to 25
Ceirano 47 CM 20-25 3000 kg 45 to 25
Bianchi Mediolanum 36 20-25 3000kg 55 to 25
OM CRD 20 -25 3000kg 51 to 25
Isotta Frashini D 70 NM 20-25 3000 kg 56-25
Heavy:
Ceirano 50 CM 20 -25 5000kg 25 to 18
Lancia RO NM 24-30 5000kg 32 to 20
RO BM 24-30 5000kg 39 to 22
Fiat 633 NM 24-30 5000kg 30 to 20
Fiat 633 GM 24-30 5000kg 28 to 18
Isotta Fraschini D 80 NM 24-30 5000kg 34 to 20
OM 3 BOD 24-30 5000kg 51 to 23
Giant:
Fiat 634 N 28-32 7000kg 40 to 30
3 RO Lancia 28-32 6500 kg 43 to 22


The first one seems a little odd. Never heard of the Infantry co. making trucks. LOAD THEM HOW YOU SEE FIT

Post Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:29 pm   View user's profile Send private message
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